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000072_icon-group-sender_Mon Oct 14 12:48:25 2002.msg
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Received: (from root@localhost)
by baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU (8.11.1/8.11.1) id g9EJm2k26263
for icon-group-addresses; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:48:02 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <200210141948.g9EJm2k26263@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>
From: Art Eschenlauer <art.eschenlauer@sufsys.com>
To: icon-group@cs.arizona.edu
Cc: "'ahamm@mail.com'" <ahamm@mail.com>,
"'Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz'"
<spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid>
Subject: Heat, light, Idol, and Unicon (RE: Icon Wish List)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:32:29 -0500
Errors-To: icon-group-errors@cs.arizona.edu
Status: RO
I am not quite sure why there is so much talk devoted in this thread to
adding object orientation to Icon. Idol has been around for a long time,
and Unicon
<http://unicon.sourceforge.net>
(which is in beta) extends Idol by integrating many of its features into a
gently extended dialect of Icon.
What is your reason for wanting to do a different, competing OO extension of
Icon? What would it do for you that Unicon does not do already?
-----Original Message-----
From: Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
[mailto:spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid]
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:01 PM
To: icon-group@CS.Arizona.EDU
Subject: Re: Icon Wish List
In <aoadds$kjq8u$1@ID-79573.news.dfncis.de>, on 10/13/2002
at 12:46 AM, "Andrew Hamm" <ahamm@mail.com> said:
>I don't think you've understood what I've said.
Au contraire; you have confirmed that I understood what I've said and
that you didn't understand what I said. Typing can be static or
dynamic. Icon uses dynamic typing. I never said that the association
between a variable and a class should be static. I said "The class is
the type.". If the type in Icon is dynamic then clearly you would
expect the association of a variable to a type in a hypothetical OO
Icon to also be dynamic.
>and to me, it follows that class members should not be declared with
>type either.
Why?
>I said "overloaded" not "overridden".
So did I.
>Since Icon supports untyped arguments,
It doesn't. It supports arguments whose type is only known at
execution time.
>it follows
No.
>Further, any method which cared to handle different args differently
Irrelevant; I'm talking about two different methods, with the choice
being determined at run-time based on the classes of the parameters.
That sort of thing is a basic part of the OO paradigm.
>Well, no it doesn't. You need to consider how it might be
>implemented
Yes it does. I would expect some sort of hash table, which is not
exactly rocket science.
>now, how can the compiler determine that arg.M is legal?
It probably can't. The run-time environment will determine it.
>The only way to solve this is with a
>runtime check which cross-references the current dynamic type with
>the visibility of M in relation to the context using it.
So what else is new?
>Did you say "Bletch!" ?
No, you did. I don't agree. There are all sorts of things that can
only be checked at run time.
>I want my scripts to complete today, thank-you very much.
And I want my scripts to complete correctly, even if they take a
microsecond longer.
>I am aiming more for compile-type checking.
Which is a more major change than making Icon OO.
>I spit on runtime checking
>Icon has never demanded specific declarations,
Now you've got me really confused. Which is the real Andrew; the one
that wants to do the checking at compile time or the one that notices
that Icon does a lot of things at run time?
>Ultimately, you have to remember that Icon is very dynamically
>typed,
I remember that, but you seem to be unhappy with it.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Atid/2, Team OS/2, Team PL/I
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